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Dr. Jordan B. Peterson sits down with entrepreneur, author, and prior member of Justin Trudeau’s administration, Celina CaesarChavannes. They discuss her time in the Canadian government, the Prime Minister’s modus operandi, the use of tokenism over substantive contribution, and why she ultimately decided to resign.

Celina CaesarChavannes is a dynamic leader with an impressive track record across business, politics, and advocacy. Currently completing her PhD in Neuroscience, Celina’s research focuses on how cognitive and emotional processes intersect to influence leadership, decisionmaking, and selfactualization. She translates these insights into practical strategies for Cognitive Optimized Inclusive Leadership (COIL) a program she designed to help individuals and organizations harness the power of their brain for authentic leadership, fostering deeper selfawareness, wellbeing, and transformation. Her leadership programs emphasize the importance of integrating neuroscience into leadership development to build more inclusive, empathetic, and effective leaders.

This episode was filmed on October 8th, 2024

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For Celina CaesarChavannes:

On X https://x.com/iamcelinacc?lang=en

“Can You Hear Me Now?: How I Found My Voice and Learned to Live with Passion and Purpose” (Book) https://www.amazon.com/CanYouHearM...


| Chapters |

(0:00) The “We Who Wrestle With God” Tour
(0:43) Coming up
(1:15) Intro
(3:56) Celina’s role in the Trudeau Administration, an affinity toward liberal dynamism
(9:02) No prior political experience, knocking on 40,000 doors
(12:53) Celina’s background with her award winning company
(20:26) Serving as Parliamentary Secretary to Justin Trudeau: early excitement
(23:03) Very little interaction with Trudeau, not allowed to speak during question period
(30:31) Why there can’t be a gap between Parliamentary Secretary and Prime Minister
(33:31) Celina’s first meeting with Trudeau, “because it’s 2015”
(36:55) “Do you trust my judgment?” Apprehension at Trudeau’s flippant statements
(42:11) AfricanCanadian issues were tokenized, purposely left out of onissue meetings
(48:59) The effects of being sidelined, loss of confidence and resolve
(52:04) “I had to be hypervisible,” the stress of being on display as a black woman
(58:32) Personal reassessment and choosing not to follow marching orders
(1:04:57) Three establishes a pattern: why so many resigned
(1:06:36) When Celina told Trudeau she was leaving politics, “seriously not good”
(1:09:57) There’s more Trudeau’s phone call
(1:12:44) Jody WilsonRaybould, “sunny ways”
(1:15:51) Wounded narcissism, Celina’s last meeting with Trudeau
(1:24:04) Was it the right choice? Standing for what’s right over what is personally convenient




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